paulg: ok, this evening I've prepared some hands to discuss jacoby 2nt paulg: we'll let wayne and valeria bid the hands with their system .... paulg: ... and if "standard" is different then I'll explain that paulg: if you have any questions please ask BILmanager: => Club: !d Beg/Int Lounge Members- paulg's session on Jacoby 2NT has just begun---- All Members Welcome !d 1Valeria: glp ->sceptic: seemed a little quick to trick 1 :) sceptic: yes a bit to quick ->sceptic: so how do you now get to dummy to lead clubs? sceptic: u lead em for me sceptic: but you are not that nice lol sceptic: ty ->sceptic: you were lucky :) sceptic: yes I never planned properly paulg: so wayne and valeria do play standard Jacoby apparently ... paulg: val's 2NT showed a game forcing raise with 4+!s paulg: and wayne's 3!d showed shortage ... paulg: in the UK many people play that you have to jump to show shortage ... but that is uncommon paulg: in the rest of the world :) paulg: valeria showed good judgement in signing off in 4!s paulg: her hand is less good with !dAK opposite singleton ... wasted values paulg: also valeria does not have any controls in the other suits (!h and !c) chrissie5: why are they wasted values? are they not useful for discarding losers? ->chrissie5: that is true, but it tends to mean that you do not have intermediate cards in the other suits sceptic: thinking paulg: so wayne and valeria play italian-style cuebids - not surprisingly :) 1Valeria: :)) paulg: so a cue bid only shows 1st or 2nd round control paulg: here valeria has denied a diamond control .... so wayne has just shown the !dA paulg: as any bid beyond 4!s would mean that he must have a !d control sceptic->Kibitzers: whoops babog: does 3!S show extra values arrived late ->sceptic: perhaps 4NT would have been better here ->babog: don;t know ... i'll have to ask them but I believe it does 1Valeria: he denies A!C sceptic: I considered 4!S babog: ty ->sceptic: 4!s also possible 1Valeria: right? sceptic: interesting now she has me confused, I did not think this deies A!C ->1Valeria: don't know :) ... whatever I think you are only worth 5!s ->sceptic: i think 5!c would show 1+2 round control ... paulg: sorry, forgot I had to bid! sceptic: 1st and 2nd round but if I had Ax !C i would still have bid the !D 1Valeria: ty sceptic: gl v dwbva: question for after hand: could N have bid a 4!c splinter? ->dwbva: possible geofspa: Hi Paul ... are you getting any Q's from the spectators ? paulg: so you stopped just in time :) ->geofspa: yes dwbva: J2N better, tho, with 4 trump? paulg: the first question is whether to respond 2NT or 2!d or splinter with 4!c paulg: i dislike splinters with singleton Ace ... paulg: partner nevers expects that ... paulg: this diamond suit is not strong ... so I prefer 2NT paulg: then val's rebid ... does 3!s show non-minimum? geofspa: it should paulg: although wayne & val are an aggressive pair ... which means they open hands that many would pass ... kyno40: n shows 17 = p paulg: this particular hand is a really bad 14 count ... sceptic: 3!s shows extra lentgh in !S or 19 balanced 1Valeria: ??? sceptic: about 19 paulg: no aces, soft values paulg: so i'd probably treat it as minimum and just bid 4!s ... 1Valeria: 3NT is strong interest in slam paulg: wayne can pass this missing two aces and soft red suits paulg: however, the auction after 3!s was still interesting ... paulg: wayne has a clear 4!c cue bid .... and val co-operates with 4!h .. paulg: wayne has a problem now ... paulg: he has a diamond control ... paulg: but hard to see where the tricks for slam will be ... kyno40: we where told by Susan 3s =maximum and at least 17 points paulg: however it's probably right to bid on ->kyno40: i play 3!s is non-minimum ->kyno40: what does susan say about 3NT? paulg: i'd probably bid 4NT here paulg: and just punt the slam if partner holds sufficient key cards kyno40: medium 15 to 17 points isabable: confusing when the cue bid a or k not a ->isabable: yes, that is italian cue bid style ... not for everyone :) paulg: then you would stop in 5!s too paulg: if you played standard cuebids ... then you would play in 4!s :) paulg: but both cue bid styles are played by experts paulg->Kibitzers: so will wayne bid 4!h? sceptic->Kibitzers: second !D suit I hope :)) ->sceptic: yes sceptic: with my hearts and !D may be slam on here hali11: yes hali11: they have 6 ->sceptic: possibly and 4!h is the best bid sceptic: hehe now to show what an idiot I am ->sceptic: what's 4nt? sceptic: val do we play 0314 or 1403 :) 1Valeria: 0314 :) sceptic: ty p :) paulg: btw, that's known as an Irish asking bid :) kyno40: susan told us with minimum 12 to 14 points valerie should bid 4 s instead of 4d is that the way to bid ? 1Valeria: lol sceptic: :) babog: Cool ->kyno40: discuss in minute hali11: claim kyno40: ty ->1Valeria: now you can claim paulg: well done, excellent auction 1Valeria: :) paulg: so a jump rebid, as 4!d here, shows a good second suit ... almost always 5-5 paulg: although Val has a minimum point count ... she only has 5 losers paulg: so is too strong to bid 4!s immediately paulg: compare this hand to the last one KQTxx Kxx Kx QJx paulg: wayne is also minimum for his 2NT bid ... paulg: and would often sign off paulg: but here ... all his values are working ... inedia2003: Excuse me paulg: good spades ... !dA is a BIG card .... and he has an easy cuebid dwbva: suppose S's !dK is now a !cK (for example) -- does that change anything? paulg: as val has a club control she can ask for aces ... and then bid the excellent slam ... ->dwbva: if stiff king then may just bid 4!s ->dwbva: or 3!c paulg: any questions ? babog: so wud you bid the second suit instead of a splinter kyno40: i understand the strong 2nd suit made the diff inedia2003: Do you think is better to bid 4!D showing a 5 card suit inedia2003: or dwbva: suppose two clubs in S (take one from hearts)? paulg: i would also bid a GOOD second suit before a splinter isabable: why do we show second suit ty inedia2003: 4!c showing the sigleton? ->dwbva: then 4!d still hali11: 5!C was 2 as+k!S? dwbva: would they still find slam? inedia2003: thanks paulg: the question on whether to bid second suit or singleton should be determined by suit quality ->dwbva: don't know :) hali11: ty dwbva: :-) I was suggesting the bidding would be the same but fails with thus? ->dwbva: possibly :) dwbva: lol 1Valeria: glp hali11: good support may be 3 card and lot of p? ->hali11: i always want 4 cards for jacoby hali11: ty:-) paulg: what was 2NT here? 1Valeria: jordan kyno40: no Jordan sceptic: oh paulg: so jordon is a well known young lady in the UK .... what's her bid mean? sceptic: hahaha 1Valeria: lol xfco: she has an even hand and opening pts babog: 3 card support 1Valeria: 4 crds support LHR or more sceptic->Club: hm, I must learn this jordan bid paulg: ok, so the standard meaning of 2NT after a takeout double is to show a limit raise or better paulg: i.e., the values for 3!h or more paulg: this allows an immediate 3!h bid to be preemptive ... paulg: it is NOT Jacoby .... so wayne bids as if Valeria has a limit raise ... paulg: which is why he bid 4!h paulg: i wonder what a 4!d bid would mean here from wayne? sceptic: wayne did not realise that though and he bid 4!H cos he took it as jacoby :( paulg: but you should bid 3!d if jacoby? 1Valeria->Club: 4!D splinter i think paulg: i think 4!d should be splinter too ... although it makes no difference this time sceptic: after an x I have no idea what 4!D would be other than splinter kyno40: no in jaoby onlt 3d means splinter ->kyno40: right 1Valeria: glp sceptic: ty v sceptic: A!D paulg: well done .... paulg: ... not a difficult hand but I was interested to see if you went beyond 4!h dwbva: does one cue in the trump suit? ->dwbva: no ->dwbva: trump suit bids almost always signoff paulg: if you want to practise these types of hands, then you can go to the partnership bidding table ... loubel: would like to clear the uk cue-stand. cue? paulg: and set the parameters to try and get a lot of these ->loubel: "standard" cue bids just bid aces before kings paulg: what does 3NT show? sceptic: 15 - 18 balanced geofspa: serious NT ? ->geofspa: too early in the auction for Serious 3NT sceptic: 4nt I hope is quantative kyno40: 15 to 17 points paulg: when you have established a 5-4 heart fit ... it is difficult for 4NT to be quantative 1Valeria: RKCB paulg: so it is RKCB sceptic: ok sceptic: yes I should have realised that paulg: the only way to try and bid quantatively in this auction is to start cue bidding and hope that it encourages partner paulg: when you go beyond game without committing to slam paulg: so interesting play hand ... paulg: experts lead aggressively against slams paulg: and will frequently lead from a king dwbva: meanie! lol paulg: beginners are less aggressive ... paulg: so it pays to know your opposition 1Valeria: mmm paulg: so there is a line to finesse the club ... and if that fails then get the hearts right ... sceptic->Kibitzers: glad I am not playing this hand :)) paulg: or do not finesse the club, cash !hAK and hope spades are 3-3 or 4-2 with the heart when hearts are not 2-2 paulg: against a beginner the second line is best ... since they never have the !cK on this lead 1Valeria: yes I can't decide :(( ->1Valeria: pretend I'm a beginner sceptic->Kibitzers: haha, remind me not to take val out shopping hahahahaha Iunatic->Kibitzers: lets toss the coin for her :) visby: the lead of the 10 shd stop you from taking the fin Ns5: ??????? 1Valeria: even the 10 of !H sigh!! ->visby: if i held !cKT98 I'd lead the 10 visby: ahhh i lead the 9 Iunatic->Kibitzers: cmon Val..be a man lol ->visby: *I* was the one leading :))) visby: lol 1Valeria: :((( Ns5: :-(( sceptic: nice try p hard one paulg: there's an English expression - do not change horses mid-stream 1Valeria->Club: sigh :((((( BILmanager: we say that in Texas, too---:-) xfco: good try Val paulg: generally you should ignore the !h10 in this situation paulg: you still have chances in spades, only needs west to hold 3 1Valeria: well undo!! paulg: lol kyno40: lol sceptic->Club: hehe paulg: ok, that's all the set hands for tonight ... we can play some unprepared ones now paulg: i believe Mary has 2 victims ... sorry volunteers to play east/west? BILmanager: Hali11 and Geofspa BILmanager: or visby Ns5: hi all 1Valeria: hi visby: hi all ->Ns5: sorry, can you please leave seat sceptic: hi all BILmanager: and Ns5 Ns5: ok ->visby: sorry can you please leave seat ->Ns5: tell bilmanager you wish to play after 2 boards:) paulg: geof? hali? visby: np :-) Ns5: sory no english:-(( ->visby: tell bilmanager you'd like to play next boards BILmanager: she left ->Ns5: no problem geofspa: Hi everyone ->Ns5: please sit again :) 1Valeria: hi :) sceptic: hi geof sceptic: hi ken visby: hi again ->Ns5: you play after 2 boards :) 1Valeria: hi BILmanager->Kibitzers: Would anyone like to play in the next set? ->BILmanager: ns5 :) BILmanager: ok, you're in Ns5: ok sceptic: stunning leads :( ->sceptic: :) BILmanager: Ns5 and dwbva are in the next set, you will be in the one after that OK? ->BILmanager: actually i don't need to sit it :) BILmanager: lol geofspa: wd p hallway (Lobby): H Paul :-) ->hallway: hi visby: tx but we belong in 6clubs geofspa: yep paulg: so this hand actually raises a good question ... paulg: should you play jacoby 2NT for the minors? visby: no paulg: the answer to this is a clear NO .... paulg: but perhaps better to ask what should 2NT mean ? geofspa: No ... 1!c opening could be on 3 cards paulg: standard says that this shows 10-12 balanced ... an invitational hand babog: is 3nt a limit bid paulg: in the UK it is very popular to play 2NT as a balanced 16+ HCP paulg: 3NT shows 13-15 in SAYC ... a limit bid visby: sry p paulg: so visby is really too strong .... paulg: so in sayc, and 2/1, i'd recommend going slowly with 1!d and see what partner does dwbva: slow arrival, FSF, etc? paulg: you need to find out if he is balanced, presumably 12-14, or an unbalanced hand with real clubs paulg: if he has 12-14 balanced, then you can make a quantative 4NT bid ... paulg: so it would start 1!c-1!d-1!s ... paulg: for me, the 1!s bid shows clubs too, as with balanced hand I would rebid NT dwbva: is a first bid of 4N by W reasonable? visby: if you played 4th st gf you can easily get to 6c paulg: but many show spades "on the way" .... so you'd have to bid 4th suit paulg: which would get you to game easily paulg: an immediate 4NT bid is not recommended, as you have no idea what contract you want to play in paulg: here 6NT will probably fail paulg: but 6!c is solid visby: typ paulg->Kibitzers: Valeria has been watching Lauria overcall ... I wouldn't recommend 1!h to everyone geofspa: gl p tiad->Kibitzers: I observe these bergen usually likes openning light,play capp,& overcall light tiad->Kibitzers: bergen players visby: stupid play lol tiad->Kibitzers: I like neither of these...LOL paulg->Kibitzers: i'm not sure it's bergen ... but it is a very european style to bid aggressively paulg->Kibitzers: also Australians and Kiwis ... paulg->Kibitzers: north american style is generally more conservative ... apart from Bergen but he doesn't play anymore :) tiad->Kibitzers: I have observed many experts like bidding 3NT with 11-11 points and just giving IMPs to opps... tiad: really great play!!! geofspa: wd p.... a little toughy for you paulg: well done! sceptic: wdo visby: bad ht play i think 1Valeria: wdop visby: sh fin the spd would be easier paulg: so thanks to visby and geof ... i think we have two more volunteers BILmanager: !D Ns5 and dwbva please sit !D dwbva: thank you ->Ns5: West kyno40: should east have opend 1NT ? 1Valeria: hi :) Ns5: hi all geofspa: thanks Paul, Wayne and Val paulg: no too strong for 1nt dwbva: hello again opps sceptic: hi all ->1Valeria: seems all you get are long weak suits :) geofspa: and Thanks to Kennert too ;-) 1Valeria: :)) BILmanager: 2 more or will this be it? ->BILmanager: 2 more visby: its easy when you have great partners :-) BILmanager->Kibitzers: !D There will be another set after this one---who would like to play? !D dwbva: typ Ns5: glp visby: unlucky with such a great hand ->visby: yes visby: oooooooops visby: sry sceptic: :( sp 1Valeria: np sceptic: wdo paulg: tough hand to find 5!h often going down kyno40: now the shopping bill will be scary dwbva: thanks for opportunity dwbva: to play paulg: lol sceptic: :)) paulg: we'll move on dwbva: so my spade length should warn me off slam? paulg: perhaps, yes geofspa: if wayne looks at opps cards to first trick and the bidding should he realise partner has a singleton !s ? paulg: you probably need partner to have singleton spade, !hAK and !dA for slam ->Ns5: partner has 5!h and 5!d dwbva: (oops, phone) ->dwbva: why 4!h - partner may have 2 hearts and 1 diamond :) dwbva: glp ->Ns5: !d loser paulg: unlucky .... Ns5: sry pd thx paulg: i would have bid 4!h directly with Waldemar's hand ... as I had three winners outside partner's 5-5 ... paulg: and 3-card support 1Valeria: hi :) paulg: i would also have passed 3!h :) paulg: last two hands for tonight sceptic: hi kyno40: hi tiad: glp geofspa: with those !h is it worth looking for a 4-4 fit before invite ? ->geofspa: yes, especially with singleton sceptic: wdo 1Valeria: wdop kyno40: ty paulg: shame about the diamond switch ... robbed Klaus of a squeeze :) 1Valeria: :) paulg: with my singleton diamond I would have used stayman here .... paulg: but still 3NT would still be reached Ns5: thx for science:-) ->Ns5: thx for playing :) sceptic: just looking for major fit, I hope she is not to weak dwbva: thx sceptic: happy to play moysian fit ->sceptic: she had 2!d for really good raise, but could have passed dwbva: gtg, but tyvm for these lessons and opportunities ->sceptic: moysian will not play well as you will get !d lead sceptic: thats a point :) ->1Valeria: i think 3!s is the delicate bid :) ->sceptic: i suggest 5!c ->sceptic: claim all but one paulg: bridge can be a subtle game at times .... kyno40: wdo paulg: and I think this auction is a good example ... paulg: wayne has a strong hand .. but the overcall is the easiest way to show his strength paulg: val makes a simple raise .... paulg: but she did have the option of 2!d (cue bid) to show a strong raise ... so 3!c limits her hand paulg: wayne bids out his hand shape, showing strength and interest in game paulg: because Val is limited ... she has good cards now - 4 trumps, !hQ - so can suggest game by cuebidding spades Ns5: bye all thx:-) paulg: this is what wayne wants to hear ... so he can now bid 5!c .... sceptic: which he clucked at paulg: sorry :) paulg: thanks everyone for their time this evening, to wayne and valeria for sharing their system ... kyno40: always hard to bid game in minoe Wayne paulg: and everyone else who played tiad: thanks paulg sceptic: thx a;; paulg: next week we start in a Chat Room ... playing a hand with an expert 1Valeria: thank you so much BILmanager: !D!D Paul-thank you so much-This has been just terrific! And Wayne, thanks for sharing your lesson with us !D!D kyno40: thank you Paul sceptic: thx Paul paulg: And Henman just won on his 5th match point! sceptic: thx Paul jacoby was helpful hallway: !D thx Wayne & Valeria - I tried that exercise Wayne - lol sceptic: haha did it work hallway: absolutely ! sceptic: haha it is great