paulg: but it showed the difference between good and world class ... paulg: if you've been watching the Italians & Poles & top USA players paulg: I thought only the last match ... albeit with the slug-like Robson ... showed good play throughout paulg: I recommend spectators just kibitz Wayne sitting North. Not seeing the other hands will help the conversation :) Click on your own name and change the Kibitz option to North. BILmanager: => Club: !d!D Beg/Int Lounge Members- paulg's session on LOW LEVEL DOUBLES starts in 5 min---- All Members Welcome! !D!D paulg: Tonight we are going to look at some doubles, and try to guess what they might mean. Jimmy V: hi all paulg: We will not be playing the hands ... unless we get to a particularly stupid contract and Wayne is declarer .... :)) sceptic: :) Jimmy V: lol paulg: low level doubles are always a problem ... established partnerships generally have agreements but pickups rarely do ... paulg: so we'll try to make some sense for some common situations BILmanager: => Club: !d Beg/Int Lounge Members- paulg's session LOW LEVEL DOUBLES has just begun---- All Members Welcome !d paulg: I recommend spectators just kibitz Wayne sitting North. Not seeing the other hands will help the conversation :) Click on your own name and change the Kibitz option to North. sceptic->Kibitzers: that is a good option I cant see the other hands :) paulg: Wayne is playing 2/1, but this session is independent of system. paulg: so we are probably not all agreed on what this double means -- any offers? sceptic: shows 4!H and 8ish points says nothing of minor holding geofspa: negative showing 4!h and 7+ xfco: neg X sallyally: negative juve: negt doubl? Jimmy V: neg isclou: enough to bid at one level but no bid poss isclou: !H with no stopper for NT paulg: it is definitely a negative double ... but what this means varies ... Jimmy V: neg; 4 hearts paulg: i guess the big question is whether it GUARANTEES 4 hearts? sceptic: yes it should xfco: shd it not? sallyally: should kestral: forcing maybe 4h paulg: i believe it should show 4 hearts if you are not strong .... penn2004: 6hcp i diot: can be 5cd suit under 10 pts paulg: i generally play that the double shows 7-11 points with 4 hearts .... paulg: but it could be stronger without a sensible bid Jimmy V: y i diot: what if u have 7pts with a 5cdsuit? paulg: for example, a 2!c bid after 1!c-1!s is weak, so I may have a strong 2344 with no spade stop paulg: with 7 points and a five card minor, I would raise to 2!c if I held clubs, pass with diamonds or double with hearts i diot: no sorry 5 hearts ->i diot: double i diot: sorry 5 hearts and 7 pts paulg: i would double i diot: ty i diot: ty paulg: And 2NT shows? juve: stopper in !s geofspa: !s stopped and 12 - 14 Jimmy V: 13-14 pts bme: 12-14 + stop !s geofspa: balanced hand paulg: that's certainly what Wayne has .... but I feel that minimum hands should really be passing .... paulg: partner has only shown 7+ points, so contracting for 2NT is very dangerous paulg: I would expect running tricks or a good spade stop and a better hand paulg: And !sAx is not a particularly good stop ... because you cannot hold up when they lead the suit .... paulg: !sAxx would be a lot better paulg: this is always worth considering when bidding NT in a competitive auction .... paulg: also after a preempt ... bidding 3NT is much better with Axx rather than Ax in their suit paulg: however ... onwards .... paulg: what is the second double? Jimmy V: penalty juve: min 10 points? kestral: on going xfco: more than 7 pts sceptic: forcing balance paulg: yea, i think it shows better values ... paulg: ... and I think it is competitive not penalty sceptic: I dont think it is penalty orientated unless penalty pass sceptic: which is my choice paulg: i think this choice is perhaps a little dependent on the scoring sceptic: I never meant to pass I was typing juve: will be a gift for ops juve: sorry paulg: so I wonder what 2NT means now ... probably does show a spade stop and this hand paulg: not strong enough to pass or bid 2NT earlier, denies 4 hearts, and leaves the choice open for partner sceptic: I thought it showed min bal sceptic: no 4 !H paulg: so this will make 11 tricks with the !h finesse kyno40->Club: very interesting lesson ladies and gentelman i think you all should come and watch paulg: 5!c, 4!h and two aces paulg: i will claim so that the chat file gets updated properly paulg: I recommend spectators just kibitz Wayne sitting North. Not seeing the other hands will help the conversation :) Click on your own name and change the Kibitz option to North. paulg: so what does double mean this time? sceptic: !C and !H Jimmy V: take out; other 2 suits xfco: take out paulg: yes, it is also often a hand that could not double on the first round for some reason .... Jimmy V: diamonds juve: min 10 points other suits paulg: wayne, holding 5 spades, knows that I am probably short in spades .... paulg: ... so I may be a strong hand with !h, !c and !d ... paulg: In olden times, this double was a PENALTY double of diamonds ..... paulg: ... but I do not know anyone who still plays this paulg: in this case Wayne does not care ... his hand is too weak to pass anyhow Gaya: if Wayne had more points (8+) would he jump ? ->Gaya: yes paulg: see that i have to bid if we are to get into the auction .... paulg: if they bid to 2!s (unlikely here!) then I would compete to 3!h paulg: so I shall try to confuse you here :) paulg: Many people play that doubles are penalty once you have found a fit ..... paulg: ... but this is the one auction where it is more useful to play double as a GAME TRY paulg: most experts will play this ... paulg: the problem we are trying to solve is that Wayne's 2!s bid is wide ranging .... paulg: so sometimes we'd like to invite game ..... but there is no space for any bids! kyno40: but does it not tell 3tr and max 9 points ? paulg: so we use DOUBLE as the try for game, and we use 3!s to show a hand that has no interest in game, just competing paulg: so I thought Wayne's hand was maximum :) paulg: few points but good shape .... perhaps I am just too aggressive sceptic: should I upgrad e my singleton paulg: it depends what you bid 2!s on ... could you have !sKTx !hxxx !dQJx !cxxx ? sceptic: yes paulg: so I think you are a lot better than that and hence 4!s would be reasonable at IMPs paulg: at matchpoints 3!s is fine sceptic: k paulg: as you can see the south hand might bid it anyway .... paulg: but once south has decided on a game try he should respect North's decision paulg: I recommend spectators just kibitz Wayne sitting North. Not seeing the other hands will help the conversation :) Click on your own name and change the Kibitz option to North. vanyvon: pls explain IMPs vs MPs comment.. paulg: for those who do not understand the IMPs vs MPs scoring .... paulg: it's all about risk vs reward .... paulg: ... at IMPs there is a big bonus for bidding and making game .... paulg: whereas at MPs you are just looking to beat the field by making more tricks ... paulg: at MPs, bidding a 40% game will score below average in the long run ... paulg: because the rewards are essentially linear ... so games should be 50% at MPs ... paulg: but the IMP scale is non-linear, so 37% for vulnerable games is good enough sallyally: I don't understand "linear" geofspa: on that last one you were WvR ... so should wayne stretch there ? ->geofspa: white is closer to 50%, but I thought so :) geofspa: Ok ->sallyally: ok, i'll post something later paulg: so what does South's double show here? baven: responsive isclou: 10+ pts support both majors Jimmy V: support for other suits; u choose, p juve: i think must show !ds sallyally: you pick I like any suit you choose xfco: neg x -4 hearts 4 spades 7-10 pts sceptic: ur double is asking me to choose a suit and i dont want to play less than game paulg: i play the same as xfco .... paulg: except this double is actually known as RESPONSIVE .... xfco: ty sceptic: vuln I think it is worth bidding amjor game paulg: so it shows support for the majors and typically 7+ points paulg: the reason for doubling rather than bidding a suit directly is to find the best major suit fit .... paulg: wayne will not always have 4-4 majors for his takeout double paulg: i think wayne's jump to 4!s is a bit of a shock .... paulg: but it's a reasonable bid paulg: since it takes the pressure off South ... paulg: in particular the points are in his long suit which makes a hand more valuable kyno40: would 2s be better? paulg: And, as you can all see, game probably needs 1 of 2 finesses to make paulg: 2!s by who> paulg: ? kyno40->Club: by Wayne paulg: wayne does have a good takeout double .... so I'd be considering 3!s or 4!s .. i diot: how does this work with preemptive raises? kyno40: ok ty paulg: this is how it works with preemptive raises ..... i diot: ty i diot: ok q bid for pt to choose paulg: so that was a good question .... i diot->Club: ty paulg: over 3!d I am not really strong enough to double .... we need more points xfco: why the alert dia bid? what does it mean paulg: however Wayne is non-minimum ... so is strong enough to reopen .... paulg: the 3!d bid was preemptive in this case xfco: the 4? paulg: and I now think game is a reasonable proposition so bid 4!d to ask Wayne to chose a major xfco: ok ty paulg: 4!d cannot be a strong bid in this sequence .... as I passed 3!d i diot: so, basically like a q bid of the opp suit when pt x pass and i have opp pts and give him the choice having support for the unbis suits paulg: yes, as long as you can do it at the right level :) i diot: ty paulg: any comments ? i diot: v good ex. responsive db lrather than a q bid isclou->Club: dble instead of 3S sceptic->Club: I expect to go down 1 there was it worth it? Jimmy V: y paulg: -200 is rarely a good score at any form of scoring isclou: allows p to chose penalty of convert to !S paulg: perhaps you are unlucky that they can double paulg: so wayne's 3!s bid was competitive, as we discussed earlier, it was not invitational i diot: we were told ovrcalls at 2 level by an unpassed hand should be stronger paulg: a double by wayne would have been a game try ... and he is not strong enough for that paulg: yes, unfortunately there is a very good Italian player sitting East who has not been to lessons paulg: so the overcall was particularly weak paulg: I would not recommend it, I'd prefer 3!h myself paulg: but actually I expected Wayne to pass 3!h .... sceptic: I almost did :( paulg: so that we could discuss the meaning of a double by the SOUTH hand ;) paulg: let me reinstall the hand to show the auction ... paulg: so what should DOUBLE be here .... isclou: penalty sceptic: game try xfco: game try paulg: the real answer is that weak hands do not have the option of game tries .... and this is why paulg: your partner has just passed 3!h ... he is not interested in game .... you cannot have enough points/tricks to invite game paulg: opposite a hand that is not interested in game .... paulg: And so your double should be penalty oriented .... sceptic: oh i never thought about it like that :) paulg: it shows a hand with defensive values ..... xfco: lol we blew that one paulg: and so you need to look at your hand .... is it aces and kings (good) or queens and jacks (bad) paulg: it is sub-minimum, minimum or good paulg: and then make your decision paulg: so we turn -200 into +300 :) paulg: and we laugh at East for overcalling with such a poor hand :) .... that is quietly to ourselves Jimmy V: lol i diot: what would you do? 1spade 3h? ->i diot: 1!s-(3!h)-3!s probably i diot: ty sceptic: hm I should bid here paulg: so i'm not very sure about my 2nd double ..... paulg: but when opponents have a fit a second double is normally takeout so Wayne is right to bid paulg: the competitive auction has pushed both sides too high ... it looks unlikely that they can make 3!s hope: should not weat x 3!H hope: west paulg: of course East may doubled 3!h ... paulg: which again should really be penalty as his partner has shown no interest in game ... paulg: that is, East bid 2!s which his partner passed .... paulg: it is difficult for West to double when they have an 8- or even 9-card spade fit paulg: West does not know that we have overbid :) paulg: Wayne is playing 2/1, but this session is independent of system. paulg: so wayne's hand was in the Bidding Challenge of Bridge Magazine last month .... paulg: (BM is a UK publication) paulg: and the question was what to bid at his first turn .... kyno40: Wayne saw it lol paulg: what did you consider? hope: 2NT sceptic->Club: 3!C that wass it ->hope: without a stop ? paulg: ok, the experts had a number of alternative options :) paulg: the most popular vote was for double ... paulg: despite the lack of four hearts it was considered important to show values ... and you can always correct to spades if partner goes mad in hearts sceptic: I did not like double :) paulg: another option was PASS .... paulg: partner will normally reopen and then you can show values ... and you have not lied about hearts paulg: the third option was 3!c .... people did not care about the suit paulg: and finally some more staid members bid a quiet 2!s although I think this is wrong! paulg: our sequence was fine ... we got to a good contract which will probably make on the spade finesse paulg: however I just wanted to show that having FOUR hearts is not compulsory .... that is, some rules are made to be broken paulg: a comment used by some panelists ;) paulg: so what does my double show here? xfco: neg x 4 h 7 - 10 pts hope: 4 !H sceptic: !h and !C baven: Heart and club juve: !s anmd 2 honors juve: 4 paulg: why wouldn't I bid hearts if I had them? sceptic: not strong enough hope: musr have 5 vanyvon: 4only sceptic: very weak or you have two suits paulg: so 2!h here would show a few values, or I could jump to 3!h with 10+ xfco: minimum hand paulg: minimum hands I can pass :) kyno40: 2 suits hope: would not 2 !S show club and !H sceptic->Kibitzers: I think Paul may make me play this one LOL i diot: sorry do not understand who bids 1st time 1 spade? ->i diot: i will explain ->hope: yes, and strong mortinii: what was the 1!S bid? i diot: ty xfco: sorry you lost me here .. what was your dlb this time? ->sceptic: pass would be good :) geofspa: something wierd here paulg: so who finds that the opposition occasionally psyche against you? xfco: lol i diot->Club: many of us i think juve->Club: I did!! lol paulg: "experts" and "juniors" are the main offenders who do this ... paulg: in this case East thinks it is safe to bid 1!s because he knows they have a diamond fit ... paulg: so i recommend that doubles are penalty in the majors when the auction goes ... kyno40: very interesting never thought abaut that paulg: (1!d) - DBL - (1!h or 1!s) - DBL hope: what 1!S means ->hope: it is a psyche paulg: i recommend the same over 3-level preempts .... so paulg: (3!c) - DBL - (3!h) - Double is for penalties ... paulg: to stop opponents psyching paulg: as I explained ... there is little other use for the double .... paulg: so what do you think my double is ? xfco: take out juve: other suits and min 10 points paulg: strong or weak ? xfco: weak juve: weak juve: pass kyno40: w geofspa: weak ,,, you can "borrow" 3 points from partner geofspa: 7 - 10ish paulg: well done geof ... yes it is a balancing double so I can "borrow" a king from partner paulg: with a normal double I would have doubled on the first round ... paulg: now you see the full hand it's unlikely that 2NT is a good spot ... niuentri: would u have bid the same if u were vulnerable? paulg: yes juve: yes paulg: i would probably bid 3!c with wayne's hand and blame partner if it goes down :) niuentri: quite risky xfco: lol geofspa: I have just given a lecturette on balancing ... repeat wed mornign at 5am paulg: it is risky ... but they have a fit and so we should have one ..... sceptic: I was blaming you for 2nt going down lol paulg: geof tells me he is repeating his lecture on balancing on wed morning .... he will tell you the time sceptic: :) kyno40: so after 1 st pass it always is balancing dbl ? paulg: yes, you can blame me for that too:) geofspa: It is 5am BST ,,,, 0000 EDT paulg: yes, balancing double is far more frequent that the old fashioned penalty double kyno40: ty ->geofspa: didn't know there was a 5am BST! niuentri: what time is it there now? so that i can translate it into my local time, tx paulg: it is currently 20:20 BST niuentri: ty paulg: so why did I put this hand in? niuentri->Club: never give 2!C with less than 11 pts paulg: or, put another way, who did I expect to double :) sceptic: north? vanyvon->Club: wayne paulg: perhaps this is something new ... but a double of 1NT shows a takeout double of opener's suit sceptic: I was not sure what x would mean after 1nt may be penalties paulg: in this auction paulg: again, we have found it is more frequent to be takeout than penalty of 1NT .... Reinhard M->Club: 1 player next door , please paulg: of course, if you have a strong balanced hand you can double too ->BILmanager: this is the last hand, so I'll need 3 players after this paulg: but be aware that partner will take it as takeout .... BILmanager: ok paulg: on this hand South has a tough choice .... paulg: at pairs I would gamble on the contract going down 1 and pass 1NT-X .... BILmanager->Kibitzers: Paul would like 3 volunteeras to play a couple of hands any takers? niuentri: it should also be promising 4 cards in the other major, isnt it? paulg: but West would bid 2!c and then we would find our heart fit .... paulg: yes, it should show 4-card major OR the ability to cope with a stronger hand paulg: most takeout doubles focus on the majors ... and let the minors look after themselves paulg: so that is all the hands I've prepared for tonight ... so we have some time for unprepared hands assuming we have some volunteers juve: all!! geofspa: Hi all sceptic: hi all :) paulg: well done, a nice sensible auction geofspa: gl p juve: y!! juve: ty juve: txs kyno40: thank you Paul have to leave for 15 minutes big eyeopener enjoyed bye for now BILmanager: !d I need 3 volunteers for the next round - We'll change at Board 4 !d hope: Thank you very much for the interesting lesson ->hope: thankyou hope: hard for us down under it is now 5,30 am:-(( ->hope: hm, I'm not sure I'd be up at that time! hope: well many good lessons are at odd hrs for us ->hope: sure, and many poor ones too ! sceptic: wdopps paulg: a bit of a ping pong game there juve: ty!! geofspa: wd p hope: :-) our choice juve: lol juve: ty pt LadyStar17: I should have led !H to my partner paulg: on the play you need to establish clubs before you lose your diamond entries ... ->LadyStar17: yes, at the end ... rest was fine juve: yes paulg: and then you will make the contract in comfort as the cards lie paulg: but the good thing about bridge is the next hand is only 5 minutes away :) juve: lol paulg: ... unless you are playing with Andy Robson ... in which case it's 20 minutes away geofspa: and a completely different challenge ;-) agur: lol BILmanager->Kibitzers: !D C'mon kibbers I know some of you are itching to play. who would like to go in the next set? !D i diot: would u explain the seq with interference?please ->i diot: which sequence? i diot: if east interferes LadyStar17: ty P LadyStar17: gl sceptic: typ ->i diot: if East interferes then transfers are not played, so South can bid 2!h natural, non-forcing i diot: ty ->geofspa: pass looks clear there :) Clemmy: tu paul enjoyed yr lesson very much, must leave now bye! paulg: another sensible auction, well done ->Clemmy: thankyou, bye paulg: some games are just too difficult to bid unless you are always overbidding ... agur: what was the wat to find 2 !s ? 2 !d by Juve ? agur: the way juve: wd ops paulg: this hand is a perfect fit, so it is lucky that game makes LadyStar17: wd W sceptic: ty ->agur: possibly if you are playing some 2-suiter intervention ... geofspa: wd W juve: should i doubl here? agur: ty paulg: note that if juve/geof compete ... then North/South may well bid game BILmanager: the 3 new players are ready and waiting juve: yes paulg: i think you should pass, unless you have a bid for spades and diamonds juve: indeed juve: wd pt!! geofspa: that was my fear if I did move over 2!h paulg: but if Rosemary is able to bid 2!h weak ... and the 3!c after 2!s then wayne will jump to game agur: perhaps 2nt for !s and !d ? i diot: playing dont? ->agur: too high for a weak hand agur: ty paulg: perhaps dont paulg: but all that will happen is that their score will get worse, so passing is fine paulg: so thanks to Rosemary, Geof and Juvenia juve: my pleassure juve: txs all juve: bye paulg: we have three final volunteers for tonight geofspa: thanks Paul and Wayne BILmanager: robert, rob and lou please sit sceptic: :) mortinii: hello all robertn: hi all xfco: ty enjoyed the lesson today, i MAY understand the dbl's bid a bit better , must go now ->xfco: good, bye for now mortinii: glp ->mortinii: do you play sayc? mortinii: try to ->mortinii: you are a bit good for 3!h ... a Jacoby 2NT - game forcing raise with support - would be better :) mortinii: oh ya... thx ->mortinii: but it worked well after all :) mortinii: sum times ya just get lucky juve: bye Paul must leave now. Good night and txs. As always very good session ->juve: thankyou, goodbye mortinii: wdp paulg: so Rob's tactical forgetting of Jacoby 2NT has worked wonders here ... robertn: wdo mortinii: a strategic error paulg: many pairs would bid to slam or at least the 5-level and go down :) ->mortinii: good start! mortinii: :) BILmanager: want 3 more or shall we call it a day? mortinii: slammin' ->BILmanager: that's it for now :) ->mortinii: that's 0 aces ->mortinii: because lou plays 4130 i diot: was 3spades necessary? ->mortinii: 0 of the 5 aces, so I think 5!s is probably best mortinii: screwing up ->mortinii: more loubel's fault than your's LadyStar17: what is that 5 !H bid all about?? ->mortinii: try 5!s sign off mortinii: glp ->i diot: no, it was an overbid loubel: easier lol i diot: ty this is why I say basics basics mortinii: my 5!h was a continuation of rkc, and didn't want to do that... right? ->i diot: loubel should pass, rob will reopen and then Lou can bid 3!s and get a simple raise to 4!s i diot: do u know we had for a while in this lounge sessions how to bid gslam? mortinii: assuming !s as trump ->mortinii: right, 5!h was the queen ask ->i diot: :) more points lost lower down than that i diot: i know the sequence my name is i diot and a beginner but i am neither mortinii: keep forgetin' the nuances.... get me every time ->sceptic: good lead by the way sceptic: ty mortinii: good effort lou sceptic: nto robertn: nto paulg: unlucky ... but I think the 3!s bid was a bit of an overbid that got you too high ... 4!s would have been a lot easier :) paulg: this hand could have been one from the lesson actually .... loubel: i see ty paulg: if you pass 3!d then Rob will reopen with a double .... then you can make a simple 3!s and get raised to game sugarspun5: thnks for lesson paul loubel: 3!S strnger thab 4? paulg: Rob will not be so interested in slam on that sequence paulg: no weaker paulg: although you have heart shortage it is unlikely to be good as partner rates to have heart values LadyStar17: 4!S weaker hand paulg: so that's all for tonight ... mortinii: thx paul paulg: thanks to Wayne and all our volunteers sceptic: thx a lot Paul was fun robertn: thx Paul LadyStar17: ty Paul great lesson vanyvon: thanks - loved it all sceptic: cheers Paul thats was good i diot: ty great lesson ->vanyvon: thankyou i diot: ty v good lesson hypatia_3: ty Paul baven: ty Paul himera: ty P BILmanager: !D!D Paul-thank you so much-You make learning fun! And Wayne, thanks for sharing your lesson !D!D paulg: i expect to see lots more doubles in your auctions ;) paulg: bye all